Sixth Army Group  

Go Back   Sixth Army Group > Discussion Areas > General Quarters

General Quarters General 1:6 WWII Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-25-2008, 02:58 AM   #1
Armor Abteilung
Mortarman
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chandler, Az.
Posts: 350
6th Panzer Division, II Abteilung/Panzer Reg. 11 Help Needed

I have been searching high and low for photographs of PZ IV's of this regiment, specifically the Ausf H. I have checked my resources at home in my books and have found nothing. I have searched the intenet for several weeks and found different variants but nothing remotely close.

I know they division had a variety of Panzers to include II's, III's, IV's, Panthers and Tigers.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Steve
Armor Abteilung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2008, 08:39 AM   #2
Andreas
Mortarman
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 390
What is it you are looking for? Camo schemes or the exact models used?

To quote Pushing Daisies: "These were the facts": tanks were used long after they were due for a through factory overhaul since the tank commanders were afraid they wouldn't get the tanks back. Therefore, as long as a tank did not suffer catastrophical destruction, it would get repaired and re-repaired at the division workshop, even if it was obsolete - I read somewhere that the Pz-38(t) were used into 1943.

Tigers were not used in divisional organizational structure; they were IIRC all gathered in independent Tiger batallions.

Trivia: The only people referring to tank model letters are historians, collectors and modellers; the soldiers refer to the tanks as type with simplified gun type (Pz-IV with short gun for example).

Red and green camouflage was often field applied on a factory applied dark yellow base, therefore the pattern could be very varied. Personally I doubt you'll ever find good pictures of that very specific batallion.
Andreas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2008, 01:36 PM   #3
Hoffner
Company Commander
 
Hoffner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Baltimore,MD
Posts: 764
After going through the books I have, specifically "Wehrmacht Panzer Divisions 1939-1945" There was NO Panzer IV's Ausf. H's in the 6th Panzer Div. They only had D's and E's.

Now it does show the camo and lettering for all of the different campaigns they were in. Let me know if you would like any of the pics that I have of them.

Hopefully this helps.
Brad
__________________
Brad

Damnit....I glued my fingers together again.
Hoffner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2008, 08:34 PM   #4
Armor Abteilung
Mortarman
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chandler, Az.
Posts: 350
I am specifically looking for pictures of PZ IV's, preferably later Ausf's that were under the command of Franz Bake. Specifically the numbers on the tanks themselves. I am trying to accurately model one from Bake's regiment. I understand camo usually varied from crew to crew....but looking for numbering system and the locations of unit insignia.

Thanks.

Steve
Armor Abteilung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2008, 11:54 PM   #5
Johnny Canuck
Battalion Commander
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,376


I just finished reading the memoirs of Erhard Raus who commanded the 6th Division on the eastern front at various times. I lent it to Generel Specific and will get it back ASAP and check the photos for any PzIV's.
Raus was the originator of the zone defence, he is one of the lesser known generals on the eastern front. Probably because of his zone defence ideas, which didn't have the allure of the blitzkrieg that Manstien, Guderian and others wrote about. The zone defence was a response to the lack of equipment that Raus often found himself confronted with and he preferred to give territory and save what troops he had for a strong counterattack or preemptive strike. Often he cobbled together whatever units were available cooks, truck drivers whoever and held any available armour in reserve which often wasn't much to strike at any Russian spearheads that advanced past the abandoned frontline.

Using Raus' name might bring up some info on a search.

JC
__________________
Johnny Canuck

Basil: "Oh, German! I'm sorry, I thought there was something wrong with you."
Johnny Canuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2008, 12:17 AM   #6
B Hellqvist
Company Commander
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 732
Checking "The 6th Panzer Division 1937-45" by Helmut Ritgen (former adjutant of the 11th Pz Regiment), the division received F2's during the summer of 1942. As for the numbering, the division sported small turret numbers at least early in the Russian campaign (there are several photos of III's with numbers that are about half the normal size).



This was the only image in the book (a detail that has been enlarged) showing a late Panzer IV of the II/11th, according to the caption in Eastern Prussia in the later half of 1944 (which rules out a tank in a unit commanded by Bäke). The numbers on the turret skirt appear to be of normal size.

As for Dr Bäke, he assumed command of II/11th in June 1942, so the tanks ought to be F2's. He held that position for over a year before taking command of the entire regiment in July 1943. In April 1943, the I/11th left for refit to Panthers, and the regiment had just a battalion of IV's for 20 months. In December the same year, he was ordered to form the PzReg "Bäke", and left the 6th PzDiv.

The standard numbering system for German tanks can be found here (scroll down).
B Hellqvist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2008, 02:34 AM   #7
Armor Abteilung
Mortarman
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chandler, Az.
Posts: 350
B Hellqvist, Thanks for the information. It is amazing the recount of such events. In Stackpole Military History Series : Panzer Aces---German Tank Commanders of WWII

On page 25, it clearly states how on Sept 14, 1942 Bake's division/unit recieved new armor to bring it back to strength to include Pz III's (with both the short 5cm and long 7.5 cm gun. It also stated they recieved several of the Pz IV's with the long 7.5cm gun. I also show some photos, though I am unable to tell for sure, of Pz IV's that appeared to be Ausf G/H.

This is where my hope is I could see an Ausf H in that division during Bake's time. Bake was forced to leave on Sept 23 1943 to refit to Panthers.

I did not know about the numbers being smaller than normal. That is valuable informtion. I guess there is just no way to really know exactly what type of Pz IV's Bake commanded. I will keep up the search as I am trying to make this as close to correct as possible.

Thank you very much for the information. Everyone's diligence in this matter is greatly appreciated.

Steve
Armor Abteilung is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:02 AM.


vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2005 - 2015 www.sixtharmygroup.com