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Old 02-06-2006, 04:06 PM   #1
irish70
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captured equipment

we all know how common it was to see captured equipment in use in europe,but has anyone ever seen pics of japanese army or marines with captured u.s. equipment such as sidearms.ive been looking at photos all day but havent seen a thing.
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Old 02-06-2006, 05:46 PM   #2
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Hi,

I am heavily into wwii japs and have researched a good bit. Heres a few items. I can scan some pics but it might be a while before i get them to you. here goes:

Alot of US weapons were captured thru the Chinese.

I have pics of japs using a BAR(in china) and a thompson( new guinea).

Japs used a Lewis, or should I say their version. they had the right to produce in 1920. They call it the Type 92. Looks just like a brit Lewis of WWI fame. Ammo was carried in two large drum bags hung off the suspenders.

The Japs used PAK 35/36 as captured from the chinese. around 200 or so. They were definitely on Guadalcanal.
They used the gun with and without the shield.

M3 stuarts were used.

Thats about it for now. I assume under the supply shortages the japanese faced in the field they would use anything they had ammo for.
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Old 02-06-2006, 06:57 PM   #3
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thanks for the info 8-)
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Old 02-06-2006, 08:16 PM   #4
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The Japanese also made a limited copy of the Garand late in the war, but it saw limited use. I seem to recall that one was a battlefield pick up on Iwo, but I could be wrong on that.
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Old 02-07-2006, 03:35 AM   #5
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I'll keep an eye out - I look over PTO pics a lot, and now I'm curious.

Very generally speaking, beyond immediate necessity, captured weapons have little value to a soldier beyond being a souvenir - even if they are better weapons.

The reason is that the logistics train of the soldier's army can't support the weapon. So, unless you are over-running an enemy consistently, you can't keep capturing enough ammo and spare parts to continue using them for long. The more complicated the weapon system, the more problematic they are.

As far as the Japanese are concerned, I can't imagine that they got much use out of any Stuarts that they got ahold of. As soon as one blew a track or any of the other myriad of problems that come up with (even modern) armor, they would be useless to them.

For many years there was a rumor that the Japanese had taken captured shore battery guns from Singapore to Tarawa. This was disproved by a British researcher in the 1970's though. It's an interesting story if you want to read it: Singapore Guns
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Old 02-07-2006, 05:45 PM   #6
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The Japanese did reuse alot of captured weapons and equipment. They even used some captured British bombers to drop Paras early in the war.

The American forces in the Philippines were very well equiped. The M3 Stuart was state of the art at the time and MacArthur made sure his forces has as much up to date equipment as they could lay their hands on including Garands and Halftracks. Sadly it wasn't enough to stop the Japanese.

There are quite a few pictures of the Stuarts with Japanese markings and they were used thought the war but as far as I know only in the Philippines. I don't know of any that were shipped out to other areas. Seems that was the case with most captured weapons. Perhaps that was to keep them near the supply sources, or the Japanese might not have wanted to expend resources on captured stuff. Extensive testing was done on the Stuarts and it was concluded that the Stuart performed well above the Japanese counterparts.

There is an excellent website about the action of the Stuarts in the Philippines prior to surrender here:

OPERATIONS OF THE PROVISIONAL TANK GROUP

It even mentions one case where a Stuart was captured and reused during the battle against the US Forces.

Captured Stuarts were also used in Burma. The Austrailian 7th Armored also documented going up against Japanese Stuarts with their own Stuarts.

This webpage shows pictures of captured Stuarts in Japanese hands. Gives a slight perspective on the quantity of them.

The Bataan Commemorative Scrapbook
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Old 02-07-2006, 08:09 PM   #7
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Thanks for the info Kanowarrior. I'll check out those sites. I didn't think of Corrigedor. Naturally, it would have been a large source of captured weapons.
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Old 02-07-2006, 08:40 PM   #8
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Several japanese armies were left in Burma and on New Guinea and other islands to fight to the last man and no longer had any supply. Any supply late in the war was usually rubberized items of much lesser quality of what they started with. Most of their cotton uniforms rotted off in the tropical climates. Japanese had a terrible time keeping their ammo from corroding. If i was a jap and came across a BAR and a bag of mags I know what I would use. I think any captured US/brit weapon, uni part, kit, or gear would be acceptable in any late war Japanese soldier presentation. There are not alot of photos of late war japanese soldiers, mostly what we get is a half naked surrendering jap or pics of dead ones. Most of the photos are from China way before our involvement in the WWII.
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Old 02-08-2006, 05:49 AM   #9
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Fair point.

This also partially explains why Marine uniforms changed from battle to battle even with the same division - uniforms didn't last long in the jungle. - Hell, they didn't last long in the woods of northern Virginia for that matter - I must have torn up six sets of the socalled "rip stop" cammies at TBS.

P.S. Did any of you guys see that Japanese Sniper figure on eBay a week or so ago? He was awsome.
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:46 PM   #10
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Anybody got a picture of that sniper?
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:27 PM   #11
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Last week on the History Channel I saw a quick shot of a Japanese soldier firing a .30 cal water cooled Browning.

Again, this morning I was watching a "Man,Moment,Machine", (I think that's the order of the name) episode on the History Channel on the Tokyo 1942 raid and I saw more shots of Japanese in China with the .30 water cooled Browning and they even showed an additional shot of a group of soldiers being shown the workings of the Browning.

Of course, with the History Channel you can never tell where their film being used was actually shot. We have all seen some History Channel shows with crazy stuff (in our eyes)....such as a show on the B-17 and they show gun camera shots of a B-24, even a B-25. I've seen shows on the Pacific and they showed gun camera shots of a Stuka being shot down or a Me-109 when they are talking about Zero's being splashed.

Before WW2 the Philipine Scouts were armed with an early model of the White Scout car. I'd be suprised if some of them didn't fall into Japanese hands.

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Old 02-08-2006, 08:00 PM   #12
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Are you sure it was a Browning? There were quite a few manufacturers of water cooled machine medium caliber machine guns that look similar in a newsreel, especially when they are not side by side.

The Japanese may have even made some under license or bought some from Vickers during the Russo-Japanese war. The Japanese did buy the naval guns used on Tarawa from Vickers during the R-J war.
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Old 02-09-2006, 02:59 AM   #13
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I'd put money on the fact that the shots I saw were of Browning Water Cooled guns. They were mounted on the M1917 tripod and cradle.

I took them as captured in the Philipines from our forces. There were certinally enough of the Browning's in the hands of our guys before 12/7/41. They were the standard heavy MG for infantry units and coastal artillery fortification protection.

And I've handled enough of the Brownings to be pretty sure.

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Old 02-09-2006, 01:31 PM   #14
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Being doing some more research on captured weapons in use by the Japanese. I found this...

Magruder acquiesced, and eventually large amounts of lend-lease weapons and equipment, originally earmarked for Nationalist China, went to the British for use in the defense of Burma. With Rangoon threatened, Magruder ordered the destruction of all lend-lease stocks in an effort to deny them to the invading Japanese. As the Japanese approached, there had been frantic activity to move as much materiel as possible north to the Burma Road, but it was still necessary to destroy more than 900 trucks in various stages of assembly, 5,000 tires, 1,000 blankets and sheets, and more than a ton of miscellaneous items. Magruder transferred much materiel to the British forces, including 300 British-made Bren guns with 3 million rounds of ammunition, 1,000 machine guns with 180,000 rounds of ammunition, 260 jeeps, 683 trucks, and 100 field telephones. In spite of the destruction and transfer to the British, however, over 19,000 tons of lend-lease materiel remained in Rangoon when it fell to the Japanese on 8 March.


From this I take it the Japs used British and US lend lease wepons destin for Britiain and China.
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Old 02-09-2006, 04:59 PM   #15
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Remember the old hollywood war movies where the enemy forces were using the same kinds of machine guns and tanks as the allies? Little did we know that they were accurate!

I know the japanese had two differnt rifle calibers for their standard rifle, and their machine guns used different calibers, then throw in the use of captured weapons, their logistics must have been madness.
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Old 02-09-2006, 06:19 PM   #16
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It wasn't just the Japanese that did that.

Whenever the Marines would capture a 70mm Howitzer that commonly used by the Japanese forces the Marines would often use it against them until they ran out of ammo for it.

Two of these guns are on display today at the USMC Recruiting Depot in San Diego. They are so small they remind me of a mortar on wheels. Would be a very cool piece in 1/6th that would take up very little room.
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Old 02-09-2006, 06:39 PM   #17
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Randall,

Its well known that the Jap ordance was a nightmare. Why do you think they all were issued bayonets and swords.. Something to rely on. It was standard practice to go into battle with fixed bayos, not that the arisakas were already to long for a the small in stature Jap soldier. however the type 11 LMG used stacks of rifle clips in a hopper and their LMGs used the same cal.6.5mm and 7.7 mm ammo. I believe the japs went to 7.7mm to be able to use .303 brit ammo. Not sure on that.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:00 PM   #18
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The issues you guys raise in the last few posts go back to my original point. Generally speaking, logistics with captured weapons is a nightmare, so using them beyond immediate need is usually not practical. I'm not saying that it never happened.

Grunts on both sides of a conflict get resourceful or get dead. But, you wouldn't see a Marine artillery battery say "lets just leave our guns on the ship and use the Japanese ones for the rest of the war". Caputured Japanese guns would have been used to augment Marine fires to the extent that they could be adequately crewed, somewhat accurately fired, and, as Kanowarrior notes, as long as the ammo lasts.

KW - I'll look in my eBay "watched item ending soon" e-mails and see if I have the link to the expired auction. Feel free to bug me if I forget.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetoysurgeon";p=&quot View Post
I believe the japs went to 7.7mm to be able to use .303 brit ammo. Not sure on that.
A quick way to check it out would be to see if the Japanese ammo was rim fire or center fire. If I'm not mistaken, the .303 Enfield is rim fire.
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Old 02-09-2006, 10:13 PM   #20
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Actually the Japanese went from 6.5mm to 7.7mm for other reasons than trying to reuse British Enfield ammo. Enfield ammo will not fit in Japanese weapons, the cases are to not compatible. As Leatherneck pointed out the Enfield round is rimmed while the the Japanese round is not.

It was a popular notion prior to the war to use smaller calibers but later heavier ones when the lighter rounds proved inadequate. The Italians did the same thing with their weapons.

I always wondered why people claimed Italy and Japan took on logistical nightmares because they adopted two different calibers. While the US had 30.06, .30 carbine, .45 pistol, 12 gauge and .50 caliber (not to mention .22, Krag and other shotshell training rounds) yet nobody has said the US faced logistics problems with ammunition. Only reason I can figure is because we had such a high manufacturing capacity but then logistics was a problem for the Quartermasters that wasn't addressed until post war.
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Old 02-09-2006, 11:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherneck";p=&quot View Post
A quick way to check it out would be to see if the Japanese ammo was rim fire or center fire. If I'm not mistaken, the .303 Enfield is rim fire.
The British .303 was not quite "rim fire" but center fire and rimmed.

Interesting info all about it here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British
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Old 02-10-2006, 02:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanowarrior";p=&quot View Post
Anybody got a picture of that sniper?
Kanowarrior, I found the link:


Japanese Sniper figure that was on eBay


Maybe you can contact the winner and see if he is willing to part with it.

Good Luck!
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Old 02-10-2006, 03:44 AM   #23
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In the 60's we had in use, in the same outfit, M-1's and Brownings MG's (.3006 cal), M-14's and M-60 (.7.62mm) and M-16's (.223).

We kept M-14's when we went to VN because me and other wouldn't trade ours in for the "black plastic rifle".

I traded and bought a .45 cal pistol and shoulder holster, a .12 gauge shotgun and a captured .45 cal Grease gun. I carried them all when driving.

We bought many VC guns to bring home and use (play with). Besides things like Thompson's, Stens, Schmeisers, I saw MG-34's, MG-42's, Bren guns. All this besides the expected Chinese guns. My buddy bought and sent home two long barreled artillerly Lugers. Beautiful guns. what a logistics nightmare the VC had.

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Old 02-10-2006, 05:34 AM   #24
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Thanks for the link Leatherneck. I just wanted to see what he had done with it. I have planned to make my own sniper and didn't know anyone else had done one.
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Old 02-10-2006, 05:42 AM   #25
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No problem - hey, speaking of Japanese snipers - you guys help me lobby Panzerwerk to update his MOH server with Pacific Assault.

Us PTO enthusiasts gotta stick together. :grin:
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