Commonwealth soldier with U.S. gear

[Will]

Hello everyone!


I was perusing through BBC History magazine when I found this unusual photo in a review on a new book about Monte Cassino. It shows two commonwealth troops ( the caption identified them as New Zealanders) climbing over rubble during the battle. The man on the right is armed with an MP-40, while the one on the left appears to have an American belt and ammo pouches and looks like he is carry an M1 Garand with bayonet fixed. I was wondering if anyone can verify that he is carrying U.S. gear and weapons? Did commonwealth troops ever get U.S. equipment? I'm thinking about doing a dio based on this photo so any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[AB64]

Yes certainly looks like he has American kit. The ammo pouches are almost certainly American, they're not the British Carriers, Cartridge,W.E. Patt.37, the scabbard seems to match that for the Garand, and indeed the rifle's foresight is typical Garand.

I suppose there are several possiblities. Fairly close co-operation with the Americans during the Italian campaign almost undoubtedly led to unofficial 'swaps' of kit, while I believe that some Commonwealth troops in Italy did recieve some small amounts of American equipment (in addition to the obvious War-Aid BD etc.).

Pity its not an IWM photo, otherwise the number could be found and the location/unit confirmed.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
AB64

 

[possum]

Hi Will,

at the moment I'm in the middle of building a New Zealand M3A3 Stuart.
I've done quite a lot of reading on tanks & equipment used by Commonweath troops. As far I can make out, New Zealand troops ended up with the hand me down gear during the Italian campaign. A lot of their gear came over from the desert campaign .... as AB64 has said any chance to get your hands on new kit almost undoubtedly led to unofficial 'swaps'.

 

[pzrwest]

In Farley Mowat's book No Birds Sang he(Farley) says he swapped his webly pistol with an American for the Americans M1 Carbine, after they had just landed on Sicily

 

[Will]

Thanks, guys! I really appreciate the feed back. I saw the picture and thought it would be interesting to try and base a dio off of it. The British and Commonwealth troops rarely get the credit that they deserve; there seems to be so little information out there about them!

 

[Rolling Thunder Tech]

It could be a case of the wrong photo used for an article, but I doubt it looking at the buidling construction. I can't quite tell, but it looks like the soldier on the left also has U.S. boots, along with the cartridge belt and Garand.

The early Israeli Army / IDF, circa 1948 used British / Commonwealth uniforms and helmets and some kit, like the back pack. It was very common for soldiers to have Commonwealth uniforms, Commonwealth or U.S. helmets and boots, and U.S. cartridge belts. So the photo could be from 1948, as Jews from New Zealand were in the IDF.

As an additional mix the IDF had soldiers armed with sten guns, enfields, or Czech made copies of Axis weapons. Garands were in very short supply in the IDF, but some were supplied thru the Czech connection. The most common IDF LMG was the MG-34.

Leonard
RTT

 

[pzrwest]

Israel did use alot of surplus German weapons. They converted alot of the k98's from 7.92mm to 7.62mm nato(30 and did use alot of the mp40's due to the availability of 9mm ammunition. They also converted the mg42's as well to 7.62mm for the same reason

 

[Snipah]

As a Kiwi myself, I know that we are / were very good at "acquiring" goods to meet the need. read that as pinch as necessary

 

[johnro6659]

I always ahve believed that in war nothing follows any real rules when it comes to equipment and uniforms. Just because some book says this is the way it was usually means they can be proven wrong somewhere down the line by eye witnesses or pictures taken in the field by soldiers. I have a lot of friends who served in the military from W.WII to present and I also belong to a military group/private museum here in Boston. All the vets and soldiers tell me they have picked up items they needed in the field and didn't always used what was issued. Pics like this do not surprise me. I think in a combat situation you have a lot of artistic license to a point. I saw a picture in one guys photo album not too long ago of a US soldier in the back ground wearing a German great coat with his Sgt stripes sewn on the sleeve!

 

[pzrwest]

I agree never say never because as soon as you do a picture will turn up just the opposite

 

[AB64]

I agree, a soldier's kit in a combat zone rarely follows regulations particularly closely.

On that note, here is another interesting photo from the battle of Monte Cassino - IWM NA 14851
THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944 | Imperial War Museums (right-click the picture then click 'Download this item' to enlarge it)

Note the soldier in the foreground stripping and cleaning an MG42 (unsurprising due to the usefulness of the MG42's rate of fire), but then more interestingly the Serjeant in the background wearing what appear to be the calf length DAK 'Tropen Schnurschuhe' canvas boots - presumably acquired from a prisoner and worn in preference to the standard 'ammo' boots.

AB64

 

[rivetcounter]

French troops used American uiforms in Europe, troops using none standard kit is nothing new and still happens today in Afghanistan there are many English troops using captured AK’s, in WWII Allied troops as often as they could would use captured MP40’s MG42 and MP44 for their higher rate of fire

 

[pzrwest]

There are some drawbacks to useing enemy items though, like supply of ammunition for one. Another drawback is being captured with the enemy's weapons medals etc. I remember watching a documentary on the military channel where a US vet related a story where a friend of his had picked up a luger as a souvenier(sp) and was later captured, the vet remarked that when he entered the town he found his friend dead and the Germans had killed the man and then stuffed the luger in the dead man's mouth. I guess it was a warning about being caught with their items. I guess the same would apply if a man came across an enemy with a personal item on him that could have only aquired by killing the person to get the item souvenier(sp) etc....

 

[Kev Longino]

but then more interestingly the Serjeant in the background wearing what appear to be the calf length DAK 'Tropen Schnurschuhe' canvas boots - presumably acquired from a prisoner and worn in preference to the standard 'ammo' boots.

I actually thought that the Sergeant and the guy with the MG42 were wearing what appears to be plimsolls , taking the opportunity to relax their feet. There don't appear to be any laces on the Sarge and no heel on the footwear.

I can't quite tell, but it looks like the soldier on the left also has U.S. boots,

Or British anklets, especially as they are a different colour to the boots.

 

[AB64]

I actually thought that the Sergeant and the guy with the MG42 were wearing what appears to be plimsolls , taking the opportunity to relax their feet. There don't appear to be any laces on the Sarge and no heel on the footwear.

Kev, you are right, there don't seem to be either lengthy laces or heels on the footwear, thus they can't be Tropen Schnurschuhe . It looks like the man with the MG42 may indeed be wearing the standard PT plimsolls.

However, the Serjeant's shoes don't look much like the issued PT plimsolls (see page 53 of 'The World War II Tommy in Colour Photographs' by Martin Brayley & Richard Ingram), the PT plimsolls not having an angular line on the side (it was this angular feature and the height of the 'canvas' section that led me to incorrectly identify them as Tropen Schnurschuhe).

This makes me wonder if they are perhaps a locally favoured form of fairly thinly soled footwear aquired from a North African or Italian trader or somesuch.

Cheers,
AB64

 

[johnro6659]

In some cases using enemy weapons is a plus because it confuses the enemy. Special Forces in Vietnam used AK 47s because it was easy to tell the US weapons sound from their AKs sound when fired. Guys who did a lot of their patrols in enemy territory were less likely zeroed in on while doing what they did. You see a lot of pics where Germans are carrying a Russian Ppsh which fired the 7.62×25mm Tokarev round not comprable to the German 9×19mm Parabellum round that a lot of people seem to think it was capable of firing. Getting ammo probably wasn't that hard but would it be worth carrying extra ammo around. I think that pics we see from W.W.II are probably soldiers getting temporary use out of something before they destroy it or probably pose with it before they stash it as a souvenir.

I am sure getting caught on either side with a cache of souvenirs didn't go well. Knowing the risks there were plenty of soldiers using non issued items that they either traded for, bought or confiscated. My Dad brought home a German Luger when he returned home from W.W.II. I only saw it once because it was locked up at my aunts house after she passed I don't know what ever happened to it. Wish I had it today!

 

[viaad]

The germans converted captured ppsh41's to 9mm, in what numbers I dont know, but the germans also used their ammunition which was similar to the russian cartridge in the weapon.

 

[johnro6659]

I am sure it wouldn't have been very hard to convert the PPSH to 9mm they were pretty close in caliber. I don't know how many they might have done either, I never read anything about it in the past. I am not surprised the Germans confiscated a lot of other weapons, tanks and vehicles and put them into service during the war. Now with just about everything being a NATO round swapping and using other weapons manufactured in other countries wouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[viaad]

John
The 9mm round required conversion but the Germans had a round very similar to the round the Russians used. The 7.62x25 was almost identical to another German. One country probably took the others idea for the round and that may be a reason why. But the Germans used their ammunition to supply their use of the ppsh41. They even had a designation for the weapon in their supply system.

 

[Charlie Foxtrot]

My dad was in the 10th Mountain Division in Italy.
I was talking to him about several things today,
trying to get a diorama together. After he was injured
he returned to the division and was on light duty as a
HQ jeep driver. He was issued a M1 rifle but sometimes
ammo was in short supply so he acquired a Mauser rifle
as a second weapon. He carried it when on outpost duty.
A famous U.S. Colonel was chewing his a## for being
out of uniform with the wrong weapon just seconds before
that Colonel and his Sergeant Major were killed by an
88 round. My dad says "my foxhole was only big enough
for me. I warned them the enemy was watching...".