Hitler Youth / 12 SS uniform questions

[krakow]

I'm trying to get a better understanding of the relationship between the HJ youth organization and the 12th SS HJ.


So it's not common for the cuff title to be worn on the black tunic of the boys in the HJ youth group?


Wasn't the cuff title made for the 12th SS once it was formed into a combat unit and not meant for the youth organization?


Young kids from HJ youth group were able to join the 12th SS HJ?


And in doing so, they were issued a different uniform and did not actually fight in the black youth group uniform?


Judging from the famous pictures of Big Daddy passing out pot metal decorations the little HJ tikes that were defending Berlin in the last days did actually wear and fight in the black uniform?


Any combination of camo and the black uniform would have been unlikely?


Were any long guns other than K98's or any sidearms (pistols) issued to the higher rank tikes in the black unis?


Thanks in advance for any help.


Steve

 

[Obergefreiter Hans]

The only subject I can help you with is the battle of Berlin one. During that battle it was so chaotic the Hitler Youth wore just about anything. The darker uniforms where common during that time because that's all they had. They could have easily picked up a camouflage jacket and worn it with the darker uniform. During the battle the main weapon for these kids would probably be the panzerfaust. Outside of the HJ Volkssturm I don not know.

 

[hansalbin]

The HJ and the 12th SS were separate organizations.
They pulled the 16-18 year olds from HJ to 12th when it was formed.
The HJ had several arms, Naval HJ, air raid wardens/helpers, Luftwaffe auxiliary etc.

The cuff title was for members of the 12th SS and they were issued with regular SS uniforms and equipment.

At the end any weapon uniform combination was possible for HJ.

It was the second oldest paramilitary organization behind the SA.

Broken into 2 groups HJ boys 14-18 and the DJ (Deutsche Jungvolk) 10-14.

 

[pzrwest]

Again not all members of the 12thSS received cuff titles as these cuff titles were an award like the AFRIKA cuff title which was worn on the left sleeve as apposed to the AFRIKAKORPS cuff title which was worn on the right sleeve

 

[RogueJK]

So it's not common for the cuff title to be worn on the black tunic of the boys in the HJ youth group?

Correct. Members of the 12th SS Division did not wear the black HJ tunic. And members of the Hitler Youth organization did not wear the 12th SS Division's cufftitle.

Wasn't the cuff title made for the 12th SS once it was formed into a combat unit and not meant for the youth organization?

Correct. The cufftitle was for the 12th SS 'Hitlerjugend' Division, not the Hitler Youth organization.

Young kids from HJ youth group were able to join the 12th SS HJ?

Yes and no. They initially recruited many of the original members of the 12th SS Division from older (16-18 year old) members of the Hitler Youth. But not every member of the division was from the Hitler Youth. And not every Hitler Youth was allowed to be a member of the 12th SS Division.

And in doing so, they were issued a different uniform and did not actually fight in the black youth group uniform?

Correct. The soldiers in the 12th SS Division wore the same feldgrau and/or camouflage Waffen-SS combat uniforms as members of the other Waffen-SS divisions. They no longer wore the black Hitler Youth uniform.

Judging from the famous pictures of Big Daddy passing out pot metal decorations the little HJ tikes that were defending Berlin in the last days did actually wear and fight in the black uniform?

Correct. But those were members of the Hitler Youth organization that were pressed into military service in defense of Germany, much like the old men of the Volkssturm. These were not members of the 12th SS Division.

Any combination of camo and the black uniform would have been unlikely?

As already stated, the members of the 12th SS Division did not wear the Hitler Youth black uniform. And for the most part, Hitler Youth who were pressed into battle towards the end of the war generally did not have camo. But some did manage to get access to various camouflage uniform items. For example, here are a few photos of young members of the Hitler Youth (the organization, not the 12th SS Division) who were captured by American troops while wearing Italian camo anoraks:

Were any long guns other than K98's or any sidearms (pistols) issued to the higher rank tikes in the black unis?

Much like the Volkssturm, the Hitler Youth members who were pressed into military service at the end of the war were given whatever weapons were available to them. These included not only German military rifles and pistols, but obsolete German weapons and various captured foreign weapons as well.

 

[krakow]

Rogue,


You are a wealth of information and library of photos at the touch of a button. Thank you!!!!


Seems like every time I do a search I end up with the same pics of little boys in black unis, cute blondes in t-shirts and shorts, 2 kids in baggy Luftwaffe uniforms sitting on a jeep or the 12 SS MG gunner in the Italian camo jumpsuit.


Not sure if I had asked all of the right questions in the right manner. I was trying to form the distinctions between and the relationships between the "youth organization" Hitlerjugden and what became the 12 SS Panzer Division known also as Hitlerjugden.


I've seen members on various boards over the years post youth group HJ figs they bashed carrying anything from MP44's to lightsabers and while most of them have stuck with the complete black uniform, a few have added some camo pieces and that just got me wondering.


I have never seen the 2 pics you posted and find the last one to be quite interesting and have a few observations.


Both "boys" are wearing the black cap without the HJ diamond pin. Don't know why they would have removed them, just an observation. Maybe all of their pins and medals are in the piles of personal gear on the ground in front of them.


Having said that, I noticed the first boy on the right has something on his lower left sleeve that looks more like a medal than a patch.


The second boy to the left is wearing what looks to be a Grey or Green tunic made in his size as opposed to something issued that was "close enough". I've never seen photos of anything other than black with any kind of insignia attached.


Thanks again the all your help guys!!!


Steve

 

[RogueJK]

Having said that, I noticed the first boy on the right has something on his lower left sleeve that looks more like a medal than a patch.

The Hitler Youth were able to obtain various proficiency badges, similar to the trade badges worn by members of the military. They were worn on the lower left sleeve. So that may be something like a driving proficiency badge, or the like.

The second boy to the left is wearing what looks to be a Grey or Green tunic made in his size as opposed to something issued that was "close enough". I've never seen photos of anything other than black with any kind of insignia attached.

The Hitler Youth had access to a variety of uniforms besides the black M37 winter uniform (though that is perhaps the most commonly seen one). Hitler Youth that were assigned to various support jobs on the home front, such as firefighting, driving supply trucks, or manning Flak guns, were issued a variety of other uniforms. Some of these alternate uniforms were tan, field grey, or Luftwaffe blue-grey. In addition, when they were pressed into front line service in the closing stages of the war, they were often given access to stocks of military clothing items and even captured foreign clothing items. In photos of groups of Hitler Youth in late 1944 or early 1945, it is not uncommon to find that every boy in the photo is wearing something slightly different.